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TRPG討論區 => 研討區 => 原創區 => 主题作者是: 千年酱 于 2018-12-17, 周一 22:35:26

主题: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-17, 周一 22:35:26
简单说一下……关于“简化”乘法运算的影响……
的确,如果是各种动态乘法运算时,需要频繁看两张卡来计算数据,会非常的麻烦和拖沓。
早期我们遇到过这类问题。


因此,我们内部测试时采取了“被动方计算”的原则,既,攻击者只需要提供使用了什么技能,什么效果的数据(相当于“输出”一个公式),由被攻击的对象进行实际运算。

例如:

引用
哥布林:对少女发动攻击(力5*威力4,击倒DC5(力量))
下次行动:先攻3(AP7)

少女:投点6
少女:受伤10,抵抗击倒 (5*(4-2防),6+3>DC5),剩余生命90

GM:哥布林的长矛在少女身上留下了一道不深的伤痕。

其实是将诸如“命中判定”等一系列步骤,连同伤害公式等等一起给了被攻击的一方进行合并计算,攻击者并不需要刻意去看对方的卡来进行演算。同样,PC打GM的怪时,也要GM去计算实际伤害和投骰子。

加上全面压缩数据,事实上确实是减少了很多“不必要的麻烦”。

至少目前,我们内部的战斗节奏把握的还是挺合适的,不过,我们的核心规则也快发布了,可能对外测试时会有一些麻烦吧……(然后又要继续想办法解决了 :em004)
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Mounrou2018-12-17, 周一 22:53:19
It really depends on how your audience take them.

The fact of complexities is just as much important as the illusion of complexities: If someone is just going to put the thing down in 5 seconds saying "it's too complicated" then it does not matter whether it is or not. Sadly this is a pretty common thing in the field. v=_=v

how do you "spiff it up" and make it seems interesting?  Really, how do you stop people saying things are too complicated before they even read it?
WHFRP3 tried it with a boatload of boxsets... Okay, that failed miserably and they seemed to have stopped that with the new book that just came out last week.
The rest of the FF lines are doing that with "special dice" that are pretty much straight changing the numbers for pictures. That seems to be working for them and for some who choose that as well.
Others take various boardgame-esque approaches and such.
Or, you can just present it as is, if you feel confident enough.

For the stuffs above, consider your target audience and what will consider as ease of access for them. Not "Everybody Out There" cause seriously its TRPG we're talkin' 'bout here. =3= Get your niche down before going for bigger places.
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-17, 周一 23:15:51
It really depends on how your audience take them.

The fact of complexities is just as much important as the illusion of complexities: If someone is just going to put the thing down in 5 seconds saying "it's too complicated" then it does not matter whether it is or not. Sadly this is a pretty common thing in the field. v=_=v

how do you "spiff it up" and make it seems interesting?  Really, how do you stop people saying things are too complicated before they even read it?
WHFRP3 tried it with a boatload of boxsets... Okay, that failed miserably and they seemed to have stopped that with the new book that just came out last week.
The rest of the FF lines are doing that with "special dice" that are pretty much straight changing the numbers for pictures. That seems to be working for them and for some who choose that as well.
Others take various boardgame-esque approaches and such.
Or, you can just present it as is, if you feel confident enough.

For the stuffs above, consider your target audience and what will consider as ease of access for them. Not "Everybody Out There" cause seriously its TRPG we're talkin' 'bout here. =3= Get your niche down before going for bigger places.

Yes, it is important.

So we write many in 'Tips: how to play this game', to make people feel comfortable than complex.

And actually, in spite of we are working in a way of 'drive by issues', we still have no more experience in introducing and make people feel interesting. It will be a challenge for our further work(As many we have already overcome).

The vital point may be how we lead the game as a GM and preach this game..
(And sadly, only me still have some time to do this...now...)

We have solved some complexities problems in this way, but as what I have said before, many issues will come in the future...

————————————————————

是的,这很重要……
我们在《如何更好的玩这个游戏》的“指南”中,写了很多这类内容。以此让玩家感到舒服而非复杂,少走弯路。
不过,尽管我们一直在以“Drive By Issues”(实事求是,解决问题,而非责备别人或者孤芳自赏)的态度工作,但在如何让别人感到有趣这个方面,我们仍然很缺乏经验。这的确是个麻烦。
关键可能在于,需要我们做好GM工作,以及宣传这个游戏(更倒霉的是,现在只有我有这个时间。)。

我们通过这个办法解决了“复杂乘法”的问题,但正如我说的,将来会有更多问题亟待解决的。
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-17, 周一 23:26:20
It really depends on how your audience take them.

The fact of complexities is just as much important as the illusion of complexities: If someone is just going to put the thing down in 5 seconds saying "it's too complicated" then it does not matter whether it is or not. Sadly this is a pretty common thing in the field. v=_=v

how do you "spiff it up" and make it seems interesting?  Really, how do you stop people saying things are too complicated before they even read it?
WHFRP3 tried it with a boatload of boxsets... Okay, that failed miserably and they seemed to have stopped that with the new book that just came out last week.
The rest of the FF lines are doing that with "special dice" that are pretty much straight changing the numbers for pictures. That seems to be working for them and for some who choose that as well.
Others take various boardgame-esque approaches and such.
Or, you can just present it as is, if you feel confident enough.

For the stuffs above, consider your target audience and what will consider as ease of access for them. Not "Everybody Out There" cause seriously its TRPG we're talkin' 'bout here. =3= Get your niche down before going for bigger places.

I think a good way may be like the 'guide to adventure' in DND 4E.

Giving people no any character sheets, and in the story, he/she will 'remember' his/her stats/abilities in the introduction, letting the audience write them down, finish some events, combat, and finally, at the end of the story, the audience will have a full starting character.

This is what I will do in this week :)

————————————————
我想一个好点子,可能是像4E一样,写一份“冒险指南”。
一开始并不给观众看角色卡,在冒险介绍中,逐一“回忆”其角色拥有的能力和属性,让观众记录下来,完成一些事件和战斗。
当这个故事结束时,观众会获得一个完整的,初始人物卡。

我将在这周做这份工作……
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Alanryan2018-12-18, 周二 00:07:04
这里我名声最坏,不中听的话我来说吧

作为对光明之剑及其创作者略有所知的人,我觉得,排除这个系列规则的原始作者【相当傻逼】这一致命缺点外,这个规则还有一个问题是什么呢?
就是他创造这个规则,没有任何理由
这个规则既没有任何背景上的风味,也不是在dnd或者别的什么规则系统的基础上对其不足进行补完。wod的目的是创作叙事系统,科南rpg是给3r为基础的dnd进行调整以更适合低魔而蛮荒的世界观,pf是3.75,4e是wotc为战棋化和平衡性而作出的尝试,5e是综合自己各版本之长并为初心者极大优化的系统,泛统是要在一个系统里包罗万有,扶桑武侠传是日系活剧风,秦是武侠……
光明之剑,以及现在这什么千年幻想有什么?什么都没有,只有创作者对于dnd的仇恨,对自己脑力的过度自信,以及所谓的“国人要有自己的原创trpg”而刻意为创新而创新出来的污七八糟玩意。dnd说要吃饭,我就吃屎,dnd说做咖喱多放糖,我偏多放石灰,美国人的汉堡是面包夹肉夹芝士,我要做中国人自己的汉堡,那就用猪皮夹大头菜夹豆汁吧!嗯……这么做出来的东西,有人想吃就怪了
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 谢药 熊2018-12-18, 周二 01:46:48
投点平均值公式里包括了乘法吧,可以骰子替代乘法计算?
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Mounrou2018-12-18, 周二 05:38:23
Adding words for a bunch of people who might not want to read MORE words might not be the best idea.

Some JTRPGs tend to use a bunch of comics for the more complicated stuffs; At the same time there are some western designers who believe "Always put one small picture in every few pages to break the monotomy. Quality or relation doesn't matter in this regard." Both sides use simple powerpoint-type graphs quite often.

Wall of text is scary regardless. (This thing here should be example enough. 0rz)

You don't need quality artists. How about this: Try to make a few small, simple, DVD-setup-manual type of instruction-oriented pictures (Not the semi-publishable manga types you see in JTRPGs; That'll be overkill right from the start so DON"T DO THIS at least for now.) And see how far it can get you. Maybe it can get you some new ideas to show it to others?

==================================================

As for WHY we make games and edits: I myself never ask WHY anymore.
(Especially when I've still been doing that after decades... Reasons and points only get you so far. :em016 )

In the hobby, everybody would eventually get to this point. Maybe for a lot of people that's like for 15 minutes, for a few though the idea sticks.

But do we NEED new systems?

Heck NO. To put it simply, we've never NEEDED anything beyond AD&D2ed at the first place.
It's the basis of a rule, we want a rule, we houserule rules when necessary. Done.

Every other games out there are only by reason of Market Forces, and none of them are ever "needed" per se. And even if you discount that, the most we "need" for systems are probably the top 10 that dominate the vast majority of TRPG market. - And strangely enough that list won't include PF as it is a variation of D&D that you can just houserule into D&D. v=_=v

But why do we have so many countless other stuffs out there? Well, why not?

"Wanting to do something" is itself reason enough. Even if the person in question has never read any other thing out there except D&Dcore, and his product is only going to turn into a sad heartbreaker that might work even worse than the original. - Not that I am saying it is the case here. I ain't gonna say anything about this thing at hand here is my point if you catches my drift. v*_*v - I really don't have any reason to stop it. Market Force will deal with it whether we like it or not.

(Plus we all have something we do that, in other people's eyes, are "pointless". Like playing TRPG for example... AHEM. Anyhow POV is important.)

If nothing else, we always have the choice to do things "for the lulz" as long as it does not hurt anybody else.

Plus, waaaaaaaay more importantly, sometimes miracles do happen. If we keep asking why there won't be PF, nor will there be Lamanation of the Flame Princess, 無限, and probably not FATE. Heck we won't have Tesla making cars if we keep asking why... Okaaaaaay, bad example there. !!!=3=\

(WE WON'T HAVE KURATAS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuratas) IF WE KEEP ASKING WHY!!!!! DARN I REALLY WANT ONE OF THOSE. :em032 :em032 :em032 :em032 :em032 )

Maybe it will turn out great, and we all reap profit; If not, nothing is wasted on my end, nor on his end as he'll probably learn to either make something better next time or stop trying at all, neither of which has anything to do with me as well.

So I'd say let them go for it. Just my own .0000002 cents. v=3=v
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 南村辉2018-12-18, 周二 07:43:37
这里我名声最坏,不中听的话我来说吧

作为对光明之剑及其创作者略有所知的人,我觉得,排除这个系列规则的原始作者【相当傻逼】这一致命缺点外,这个规则还有一个问题是什么呢?
就是他创造这个规则,没有任何理由
这个规则既没有任何背景上的风味,也不是在dnd或者别的什么规则系统的基础上对其不足进行补完。wod的目的是创作叙事系统,科南rpg是给3r为基础的dnd进行调整以更适合低魔而蛮荒的世界观,pf是3.75,4e是wotc为战棋化和平衡性而作出的尝试,5e是综合自己各版本之长并为初心者极大优化的系统,泛统是要在一个系统里包罗万有,扶桑武侠传是日系活剧风,秦是武侠……
光明之剑,以及现在这什么千年幻想有什么?什么都没有,只有创作者对于dnd的仇恨,对自己脑力的过度自信,以及所谓的“国人要有自己的原创trpg”而刻意为创新而创新出来的污七八糟玩意。dnd说要吃饭,我就吃屎,dnd说做咖喱多放糖,我偏多放石灰,美国人的汉堡是面包夹肉夹芝士,我要做中国人自己的汉堡,那就用猪皮夹大头菜夹豆汁吧!嗯……这么做出来的东西,有人想吃就怪了
别说的这么不堪嘛……
我觉得人家只是看到汉堡好吃就想自己做个更好吃的
所以开始有样学样
然而大家有好的汉堡吃为什么还要吃这家既没有卫生验证又没有独特风味里面还时不时夹杂一些奇怪的食材,并且用一个很难拆开的大盒子包装的汉堡呢?何况这个汉堡……也不好看。
我在他们群里也说过这个问题了
但是好像么有引起注意
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 死猫运输直升机2018-12-18, 周二 10:03:48
“什么,原来跑团需要经常用到乘法吗?”
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-18, 周二 10:37:24
这里我名声最坏,不中听的话我来说吧

作为对光明之剑及其创作者略有所知的人,我觉得,排除这个系列规则的原始作者【相当傻逼】这一致命缺点外,这个规则还有一个问题是什么呢?
就是他创造这个规则,没有任何理由
这个规则既没有任何背景上的风味,也不是在dnd或者别的什么规则系统的基础上对其不足进行补完。wod的目的是创作叙事系统,科南rpg是给3r为基础的dnd进行调整以更适合低魔而蛮荒的世界观,pf是3.75,4e是wotc为战棋化和平衡性而作出的尝试,5e是综合自己各版本之长并为初心者极大优化的系统,泛统是要在一个系统里包罗万有,扶桑武侠传是日系活剧风,秦是武侠……
光明之剑,以及现在这什么千年幻想有什么?什么都没有,只有创作者对于dnd的仇恨,对自己脑力的过度自信,以及所谓的“国人要有自己的原创trpg”而刻意为创新而创新出来的污七八糟玩意。dnd说要吃饭,我就吃屎,dnd说做咖喱多放糖,我偏多放石灰,美国人的汉堡是面包夹肉夹芝士,我要做中国人自己的汉堡,那就用猪皮夹大头菜夹豆汁吧!嗯……这么做出来的东西,有人想吃就怪了

仇恨DND的时代早已经我们几个第一次肃反整风时就结束了。

而VIS来说,
v1.2开始是一个结合TCG风格和TRPG,追求“大道至简”风格的,“现代化”尝试。(从年前就开始着手定格主要的风格,既duel为主和参考了4e的模式)

v1.4是对之前版本内容不足的矫枉过正。(因为某些之前版本的大量复杂运算没有排除,生引进来的很多系统反而造成了冗余问题,导致面团第一次对外测试基本变成了批判会……)

v1.5是数值大幅优化和压缩,以及大量减少运算量,也就是现在这个版本。(改动大到了什么程度呢?作废了80%的百分比运算,核心数值大改,所有职业(20+)技能重写,现在核心刚快改完,除了v1.5即兴写的俩扩展外,所有扩展职业全部手稿化)

这不是硬要往汉堡里加石灰,是我们一直在努力探索一道从大饼到披萨的路,而且走得很漫长,很艰难。
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Leaf2018-12-18, 周二 11:13:24
这还不简单吗,升骰子或多投例如两个骰子的变成三个d6upd8ord10之类,这不就不需要乘法了

主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-18, 周二 11:55:43
这还不简单吗,升骰子或多投例如两个骰子的变成三个d6upd8ord10之类,这不就不需要乘法了
D10对于D6来说,只是增加了40%更高伤害的可能性。

这与讲究侧重于思考、控制局面(v1.5新增思路)与实力直观表现的VIS核心设定是有所违背的。

这个规则如今的特点之一,就是技能的卡牌化,除非敌人属性太高,或者具有相对的抗性加值,不然很多时候DEBUFF和“控场”效果都是 4/6 以上的命中率。

而我们追求的乐趣正是这个玩法……(虽然现在还不知道是否成功)
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-18, 周二 12:08:19
Adding words for a bunch of people who might not want to read MORE words might not be the best idea.

Some JTRPGs tend to use a bunch of comics for the more complicated stuffs; At the same time there are some western designers who believe "Always put one small picture in every few pages to break the monotomy. Quality or relation doesn't matter in this regard." Both sides use simple powerpoint-type graphs quite often.

Wall of text is scary regardless. (This thing here should be example enough. 0rz)

You don't need quality artists. How about this: Try to make a few small, simple, DVD-setup-manual type of instruction-oriented pictures (Not the semi-publishable manga types you see in JTRPGs; That'll be overkill right from the start so DON"T DO THIS at least for now.) And see how far it can get you. Maybe it can get you some new ideas to show it to others?

==================================================

As for WHY we make games and edits: I myself never ask WHY anymore.
(Especially when I've still been doing that after decades... Reasons and points only get you so far. :em016 )

In the hobby, everybody would eventually get to this point. Maybe for a lot of people that's like for 15 minutes, for a few though the idea sticks.

But do we NEED new systems?

Heck NO. To put it simply, we've never NEEDED anything beyond AD&D2ed at the first place.
It's the basis of a rule, we want a rule, we houserule rules when necessary. Done.

Every other games out there are only by reason of Market Forces, and none of them are ever "needed" per se. And even if you discount that, the most we "need" for systems are probably the top 10 that dominate the vast majority of TRPG market. - And strangely enough that list won't include PF as it is a variation of D&D that you can just houserule into D&D. v=_=v

But why do we have so many countless other stuffs out there? Well, why not?

"Wanting to do something" is itself reason enough. Even if the person in question has never read any other thing out there except D&Dcore, and his product is only going to turn into a sad heartbreaker that might work even worse than the original. - Not that I am saying it is the case here. I ain't gonna say anything about this thing at hand here is my point if you catches my drift. v*_*v - I really don't have any reason to stop it. Market Force will deal with it whether we like it or not.

(Plus we all have something we do that, in other people's eyes, are "pointless". Like playing TRPG for example... AHEM. Anyhow POV is important.)

If nothing else, we always have the choice to do things "for the lulz" as long as it does not hurt anybody else.

Plus, waaaaaaaay more importantly, sometimes miracles do happen. If we keep asking why there won't be PF, nor will there be Lamanation of the Flame Princess, 無限, and probably not FATE. Heck we won't have Tesla making cars if we keep asking why... Okaaaaaay, bad example there. !!!=3=\

(WE WON'T HAVE KURATAS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuratas) IF WE KEEP ASKING WHY!!!!! DARN I REALLY WANT ONE OF THOSE. :em032 :em032 :em032 :em032 :em032 )

Maybe it will turn out great, and we all reap profit; If not, nothing is wasted on my end, nor on his end as he'll probably learn to either make something better next time or stop trying at all, neither of which has anything to do with me as well.

So I'd say let them go for it. Just my own .0000002 cents. v=3=v

V.I.S is still not mature even after 2 years. We must face more challenges in the future.

And in fact, V.I.S is a TRPG with many TCG features, we design to let people use their abilities in crucial points and 'control' the battle tide against enemies.

So this is why we still determine to use multiplication after 5 core updates, 'Defense' will be vital point in combat, not 'more chance to avoid' but 'vital damage mitigation'.

And we will also take your points into consideration.
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Leaf2018-12-18, 周二 12:11:04
你要搞清楚一点原则,要用简单现成的泛用工具来做出简单直观的效果,而不是脑子一抽把问题复杂化搞死你自己
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: cmoon2018-12-18, 周二 12:15:03
v1.2开始是一个结合TCG风格和TRPG,追求“大道至简”风格的,“现代化”尝试。(从年前就开始着手定格主要的风格,既duel为主和参考了4e的模式)

v1.4是对之前版本内容不足的矫枉过正。(因为某些之前版本的大量复杂运算没有排除,生引进来的很多系统反而造成了冗余问题,导致面团第一次对外测试基本变成了批判会……)

蛤?

而且核心都没写完还写扩展的
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-18, 周二 12:20:51
你要搞清楚一点原则,要用简单现成的泛用工具来做出简单直观的效果,而不是脑子一抽把问题复杂化搞死你自己

除了乘法引起的分歧外,V.I.S其实是一个并不复杂的规则,尤其是1.5简化后,大部分百分比运算都没了。

(也欢迎大佬前来群里看看规则相关的介绍)

或者说,这个规则是在一定程度上复杂,换来了更多程度上的简化——TCG模式的简化,和对战略的侧重

战略深化的程度,例如:
(https://s1.ax1x.com/2018/12/18/FBiLmq.png)

涂黑的地方对战斗常常就会起到非常“关键”的作用,因为(修改后的)很多BOSS不再是不吃任何控场,而是有四五次免费【解控】机会来“对掉PC的牌”。
而这就能稳让它白白挨打一整轮了。

而首轮提到的乘法问题的解决,也是在不抛弃核心的基础上,一种“实事求是”的解决问题思路。这也是我们目前工作的核心。
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-18, 周二 12:23:47
v1.2开始是一个结合TCG风格和TRPG,追求“大道至简”风格的,“现代化”尝试。(从年前就开始着手定格主要的风格,既duel为主和参考了4e的模式)

v1.4是对之前版本内容不足的矫枉过正。(因为某些之前版本的大量复杂运算没有排除,生引进来的很多系统反而造成了冗余问题,导致面团第一次对外测试基本变成了批判会……)

蛤?

而且核心都没写完还写扩展的
:em004

因为之前更复杂……

主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 南村辉2018-12-18, 周二 12:24:21
啊……等等,你们到底是在做TRPG……还是lcg?
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Leaf2018-12-18, 周二 12:29:08
能光投骰子解决的问题还要搞乘法。。。这就是问题
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-18, 周二 12:29:58
啊……等等,你们到底是在做TRPG……还是lcg?

可以说,是一个相互结合的尝试。

兼容了成长性与“技能”(缝合怪了一点4E,但是遍地“遭遇威能”)的尝试。
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Seed2018-12-18, 周二 12:34:48
我也挺赞同这类合并规则的...
相对乘法,加法确实更好算. 但加法带来的是点数每一点都很重要的"大误差容错"问题
我觉得尽量减少不必要的计算就能达成机率化造成的偏差分歧会更适合
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-18, 周二 12:36:09
能光投骰子解决的问题还要搞乘法。。。这就是问题

我们确实很想……靠骰子解决这类问题……

然而尝试过,却怎么也无法在波动过大的情况下,做好“压场”、“解场”的问题。

而且之所以把需要投点决定额外伤害的“冲击伤害”写成了可选规则,也是认为侧重策略duel的基础上,伤害波动反而显得多余和增加运算了。
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Leaf2018-12-18, 周二 13:32:46
你不想要波动就多用d4或者d6上写两次1到3之类的设计好了,你以后要卖实体产品还能大量定做骰子小赚一点
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-18, 周二 13:40:37
你不想要波动就多用d4或者d6上写两次1到3之类的设计好了,你以后要卖实体产品还能大量定做骰子小赚一点
3d6 = 3-18,波动依然很大。
波动比较小的是1d6+12,即13-18,但这样看起来反而比12更加繁杂。

我们遇到的是这类困境。
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Leaf2018-12-18, 周二 13:43:45
你看6d3如何(6到18),一点五倍就是9d3

主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-18, 周二 13:47:25
你看6d3如何(6到18),一点五倍就是9d3

9-27仍然很大,偏离了18的期望值接近50%。
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Leaf2018-12-18, 周二 13:49:33
实际上你还能把六面骰子写上三套1、2,这样就是9d2,9到18
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-18, 周二 13:55:31
实际上你还能把六面骰子写上三套1、2,这样就是9d2,9到18
然而堆骰子本身是不会对期望值离散带来影响的。
1-3和9-27,
1-2和10-20,波动并没有区别。
影响离散量的是加值。
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Mounrou2018-12-18, 周二 14:06:49
Again, speaking about dice. You can say "There are more than 1d6 than one d6"

For example there are Fudge/FATE dice:
https://www.evilhat.com/home/fate-dice/
They are pretty much dice with sides: 2 pluses , 2 minuses, and two zeroes. And you total results in pluses or minuses.

And then there are 0-5s, simply put 1d6-1, though they also make special dice for sale. Lots of systems use that as part of sub-rules, though I think some recent systems are based on that as well.

And then we have Shadowrun and their famous "bucket of dice" approaches.

And there are also some games that are based on 1d6-1d6 for a +5 to -5 range.

And then there's SilCore that works with d6 take highest + bumping.

There are probably way more of these stuff out there too. I'm just saying this for example though. I personally don't really have any feelings on what sort of mechanics you want to use meself, and if you've been with it for years you're more used to it likely to stick with it anyhow. v=3=v

Then again there are probably more ways to get the spread you want, and for other POVs those "might" be simpler to read, just saying... On the other hand, people who want to learn it, will. So more important stuffs would be the how of getting people to do that. A packaging problem more than a mechanical one so to speak.

(Aside: The craziest dice I've seen was from a box set of some game in the 80s? I think it was a d16 with 5 zeros, some fractions, a couple of ones and stuffs?  :em017 Obviously that thing didn't sell too well...)
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Leaf2018-12-18, 周二 14:15:51
不,你在普通的时候依然用68十,然后加成就换成小数字骰子,这样除了增加其下限之外,数值还会更偏向中位数
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Mounrou2018-12-18, 周二 14:28:15
...Are you guys even talking about the same thing?   :blink:


The percentage spread of 1d6+12
https://anydice.com/program/12af9
You have the median of 15.5 with almost no variance.
In this case you are pretty much guarantee to have the result you want, so that most of the time you won't even need to roll to know the result.
(Or, on the flip side, with a margin so small, the "weight" of a single point becomes way more important than one simple 1d6, but my math ain't THAT good to show the details... :em016 )


The percentage spread of 9d2
https://anydice.com/program/1f03
You have the median of 13.5, an 80% chance of getting results between 12-15, and 2% each of getting 9/10 and 17/18


Those are completely different mechanically speaking.  :wacko:
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-18, 周二 14:37:37
And then there's SilCore that works with d6 take highest + bumping.

Do you think it is easier than just do 12*8?I doubt remembering the highest and lowest and then do plus/minus could be more complex...

(There will not be 36*29 in low levels and common adventures anyway)
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Seed2018-12-18, 周二 16:04:41
可以先决定波动范围需要多大,然后才思考用什么手段实现
比如我是用投%点(100面)来决定
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Mounrou2018-12-18, 周二 16:39:47
And then there's SilCore that works with d6 take highest + bumping.

Do you think it is easier than just do 12*8?I doubt remembering the highest and lowest and then do plus/minus could be more complex...

(There will not be 36*29 in low levels and common adventures anyway)

Actually, yes.

Basic SilCore is:
1. Roll d6s
2. Take highest roll.
>If you have no multiple 6s, then you're done.
3. If you have more than one 6s (e.g. 6,6,6,6,5,4) Than you add +1 for every identical result (in this case, with 4 sixes it becomes 6+3=9)
> It you are rolling physical dice, that means you
i) Either find the highest dice, or,
ii) With multiple 6s, count the number of 6s then +5.

(Kinda weird though that for all of them you're only picking problems with SilCore... Nevermind, that's not important.)

But, AGAIN like I said before:

"You easy isn't my easy." You've been used to your mechanics, your POV will of course be different from mine. And there will always be people who think SilCore is harder to get than your system, cause people are wired differently. (Seriously, if we switch position I won't expect you to get or like my Hexa, cause it's just how we are all wired. I've been through this same hoops for so many times before back when I still cared about these stuffs that I don't do expectations anymore... v=3=v )

Those previous rolls are just there to say that there are more ways to use a dice, not about which of them are better or worse than yours. Again, I don't really care what kind of mechanics you want to use, cause personal preferences are personal. And this here is not a mechanics problem in the first place.

Think about how you are going to sell your POV to the people who don't have them. That's the thing your need to do right now. (Note: "Selling a product" has nothing to do with "trying to get people to agree that your product is the best."
Think like a salesperson, not a loving parent.)

Welp, that's all I have on this, so guess I'll bow out. Good luck man. -w-b
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 涅薇儿·德拉诺尔2018-12-18, 周二 17:01:39
说起离散值,我倒是记得芝生居间有一种很独特的做法,|DX-DX|,也就是取两个随机值相减的绝对值,这个结果在每一个区间的概率是完全不同的,极大值的可能性极低(2/可能性数量),而极小值的可能性在X>2时略大于极大值(x/可能性数量)。
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 小狼希诺2018-12-18, 周二 17:15:43
比起数据,先设计一个足够吸引人的世界观吧
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-18, 周二 19:21:50
And then there's SilCore that works with d6 take highest + bumping.

Do you think it is easier than just do 12*8?I doubt remembering the highest and lowest and then do plus/minus could be more complex...

(There will not be 36*29 in low levels and common adventures anyway)

Actually, yes.

Basic SilCore is:
1. Roll d6s
2. Take highest roll.
>If you have no multiple 6s, then you're done.
3. If you have more than one 6s (e.g. 6,6,6,6,5,4) Than you add +1 for every identical result (in this case, with 4 sixes it becomes 6+3=9)
> It you are rolling physical dice, that means you
i) Either find the highest dice, or,
ii) With multiple 6s, count the number of 6s then +5.

(Kinda weird though that for all of them you're only picking problems with SilCore... Nevermind, that's not important.)

But, AGAIN like I said before:

"You easy isn't my easy." You've been used to your mechanics, your POV will of course be different from mine. And there will always be people who think SilCore is harder to get than your system, cause people are wired differently. (Seriously, if we switch position I won't expect you to get or like my Hexa, cause it's just how we are all wired. I've been through this same hoops for so many times before back when I still cared about these stuffs that I don't do expectations anymore... v=3=v )

Those previous rolls are just there to say that there are more ways to use a dice, not about which of them are better or worse than yours. Again, I don't really care what kind of mechanics you want to use, cause personal preferences are personal. And this here is not a mechanics problem in the first place.

Think about how you are going to sell your POV to the people who don't have them. That's the thing your need to do right now. (Note: "Selling a product" has nothing to do with "trying to get people to agree that your product is the best."
Think like a salesperson, not a loving parent.)

Welp, that's all I have on this, so guess I'll bow out. Good luck man. -w-b


May be this is national problem,we are all learned multiplication formula and can work out all ** x * in 10 seconds.
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: jyutwonggim2018-12-18, 周二 19:32:41
想要结果离散一点,简而言之不就是想要BELL CURVE钟型曲线嘛

这很简单啊,XdY,X数愈高,愈接近曲线
像DND/PF常用的1d20,1~20每个数字的机率都是1/20
有些人则喜欢HR用3d6作替代,结果接近1~20,但中间值的机率则比较高,较少出现极端小/大的数字

也有其他像是FATE/FAE使用的FUDGE DICE 4dF,效果等同4d3-8,结果是-4~+4,同样是钟型曲线

>>说起离散值,我倒是记得芝生居间有一种很独特的做法,|DX-DX|,也就是取两个随机值相减的绝对值,这个结果在每一个区间的概率是完全不同的,极大值的可能性极低(2/可能性数量),而极小值的可能性在X>2时略大于极大值(x/可能性数量)。
有些人跑FATE时就会用d6-d6取代4dF,也就是取两个d6相减,如果是-5/+5则视同0/重骰,结果同样是-4~+4,
但dX-dX虽然同样有不同机率,不过那是折线而不是曲线

最后,如果想要详细玩骰子机率的话
我推荐这个网站
anydice.com
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-18, 周二 19:57:07
想要结果离散一点,简而言之不就是想要BELL CURVE钟型曲线嘛

这很简单啊,XdY,X数愈高,愈接近曲线
像DND/PF常用的1d20,1~20每个数字的机率都是1/20
有些人则喜欢HR用3d6作替代,结果接近1~20,但中间值的机率则比较高,较少出现极端小/大的数字

也有其他像是FATE/FAE使用的FUDGE DICE 4dF,效果等同4d3-8,结果是-4~+4,同样是钟型曲线

>>说起离散值,我倒是记得芝生居间有一种很独特的做法,|DX-DX|,也就是取两个随机值相减的绝对值,这个结果在每一个区间的概率是完全不同的,极大值的可能性极低(2/可能性数量),而极小值的可能性在X>2时略大于极大值(x/可能性数量)。
有些人跑FATE时就会用d6-d6取代4dF,也就是取两个d6相减,如果是-5/+5则视同0/重骰,结果同样是-4~+4,
但dX-dX虽然同样有不同机率,不过那是折线而不是曲线

最后,如果想要详细玩骰子机率的话
我推荐这个网站
anydice.com

不,我想要的结果是低离散,实现“对战斗节奏的控制”、“压场”和“解场”。

否则对方甩出个抵抗5伤害的牌,这边2-12的伤害,就很难实现这个效果了。
但是如果是4-8,或者干脆就是6不变,就很直观。
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 涅薇儿·德拉诺尔2018-12-18, 周二 20:15:02
所以意思是你更希望是浮动低的固定值?
关于这点的话,我其实有过一种想法。
那就是用固定值代替浮动值。
举个例子,正常的骰子是D20,然后随着实力的成长,会变成1+D19,2+D18……直到18+D2

然后有种简洁的做法是,将大部分的检定用两个数值(假设是20和10)做检定,其中的大数字20作为上限(比如D20),小数字10作为固定值(变为10+D10)
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-18, 周二 20:49:03
所以意思是你更希望是浮动低的固定值?
关于这点的话,我其实有过一种想法。
那就是用固定值代替浮动值。
举个例子,正常的骰子是D20,然后随着实力的成长,会变成1+D19,2+D18……直到18+D2

然后有种简洁的做法是,将大部分的检定用两个数值(假设是20和10)做检定,其中的大数字20作为上限(比如D20),小数字10作为固定值(变为10+D10)

然而19面骰子,17面骰子,15面骰子的实体……
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 涅薇儿·德拉诺尔2018-12-18, 周二 23:47:05
所以意思是你更希望是浮动低的固定值?
关于这点的话,我其实有过一种想法。
那就是用固定值代替浮动值。
举个例子,正常的骰子是D20,然后随着实力的成长,会变成1+D19,2+D18……直到18+D2

然后有种简洁的做法是,将大部分的检定用两个数值(假设是20和10)做检定,其中的大数字20作为上限(比如D20),小数字10作为固定值(变为10+D10)

然而19面骰子,17面骰子,15面骰子的实体……

这个不需要啊,你只要让每一次变强的时候骰子是特定值就好啊。
比如说第一阶是D12,第二阶是D8,第三阶D6,第四阶D4
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 水瓶盖•迷惘记忆•八哥大王I世2018-12-19, 周三 14:06:30
不是很懂的表示,然而就个人印象比较靠谱的规则不玩杂技总共就一次加减法,一次比大小的布尔,一次投骰,然后可能把里面的某个值翻若干倍(一般也就翻个2倍)而已....楼主这运算怎么样都要来个倍数运算,里面还带个加减法吧?以及我不是很懂啥被动方运算,乘法要对两边....不都是一边报个值,对面收个值算嘛,有什么区别么?
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 水瓶盖•迷惘记忆•八哥大王I世2018-12-19, 周三 14:11:07
所以意思是你更希望是浮动低的固定值?
关于这点的话,我其实有过一种想法。
那就是用固定值代替浮动值。
举个例子,正常的骰子是D20,然后随着实力的成长,会变成1+D19,2+D18……直到18+D2

然后有种简洁的做法是,将大部分的检定用两个数值(假设是20和10)做检定,其中的大数字20作为上限(比如D20),小数字10作为固定值(变为10+D10)

然而19面骰子,17面骰子,15面骰子的实体……

这个不需要啊,你只要让每一次变强的时候骰子是特定值就好啊。
比如说第一阶是D12,第二阶是D8,第三阶D6,第四阶D4
这样不如一开始就用3d4之类的骰池,然后到达某个阶段可以让一个骰子出指定值不就好了?我记得好像是神兵玄奇的轻规则就是差不多手法.....还有我不是很懂的压场什么的,既然要卡牌化,直接卡牌标倍数两边出牌对消,结果那来当骰子数不就好了....
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Dya2018-12-20, 周四 19:27:15
原创规则的时候先明确三点。
1,为什么非做不可,没有现成的可以拿来改改吗?
2,是要自用,还是商用。自用的概念就是自己圈子里开团用,无论是只开一次的短团还是十个DM打算一起开20年的长团。商用,就是打算出版拿去卖。
3,世界观or典型剧本需要传达出怎样的风貌。


搞清楚了,量力而行。
我发现很多人写规则的根本原动力是“我觉得丢D20不爽”,很遗憾,一般人的事件和精力基本上是达成不了这种程度的动机的。
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Dya2018-12-20, 周四 19:31:55
另外,如果你并没有商用的计划。
但是把很多人生(比如几年)用在一个自写规则的推广上
将来你后悔的概率会很高。

还不如多开和跑一些团,留下美好的回忆比较好。
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-20, 周四 20:02:11
另外,如果你并没有商用的计划。
但是把很多人生(比如几年)用在一个自写规则的推广上
将来你后悔的概率会很高。

还不如多开和跑一些团,留下美好的回忆比较好。

我们本来也不是本职在搞这个规则,像无限那么搞可以么……?

有点兴趣爱好也不用上纲上线到后悔程度吧。
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: landbuilding2018-12-21, 周五 06:43:24
面团的话尽量简化,怕算错还要按计算器……或者做成电脑代算也可以,类似crpg
就算你可以心算百分比,但大部分国外普通人是不行的啊,我国太强了……
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 水瓶盖•迷惘记忆•八哥大王I世2018-12-21, 周五 10:56:51
另外,如果你并没有商用的计划。
但是把很多人生(比如几年)用在一个自写规则的推广上
将来你后悔的概率会很高。

还不如多开和跑一些团,留下美好的回忆比较好。

我们本来也不是本职在搞这个规则,像无限那么搞可以么……?

有点兴趣爱好也不用上纲上线到后悔程度吧。
不知为啥,我就忍不住想笑……换个别的举多好啊……
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: Seed2018-12-21, 周五 11:12:21
团跑多了就会发现规则虽然重要,但也就那样了.... 你会找到你觉得适合的规则的
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 千年酱2018-12-21, 周五 15:19:49
另外,如果你并没有商用的计划。
但是把很多人生(比如几年)用在一个自写规则的推广上
将来你后悔的概率会很高。

还不如多开和跑一些团,留下美好的回忆比较好。

我们本来也不是本职在搞这个规则,像无限那么搞可以么……?

有点兴趣爱好也不用上纲上线到后悔程度吧。
不知为啥,我就忍不住想笑……换个别的举多好啊……

国内规则里,无限也算是很该鼓励的了。
主题: Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
作者: 水瓶盖•迷惘记忆•八哥大王I世2018-12-22, 周六 10:19:30
另外,如果你并没有商用的计划。
但是把很多人生(比如几年)用在一个自写规则的推广上
将来你后悔的概率会很高。

还不如多开和跑一些团,留下美好的回忆比较好。

我们本来也不是本职在搞这个规则,像无限那么搞可以么……?

有点兴趣爱好也不用上纲上线到后悔程度吧。
不知为啥,我就忍不住想笑……换个别的举多好啊……

国内规则里,无限也算是很该鼓励的了。
个人表示不置可否,以及我觉得这算歪楼了吧....